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标题: An interesting Japan postcard used in China [打印本页]

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-15 16:43 标题: An interesting Japan postcard used in China

Today, I got an interesting Japan postcard used in China, I showed it to the other CSS members during stamp show (today is our CSS Seattle Chapter's meeting day).

I think this is a very good postcard and may have unique position in the postal stationary history. So I would like to share it here and want to hear your opinion.

It is a 2 cents 1879 thin paper Japan International Postal Card (FC4), mailed from Tientsin (1884 DEC 15) with TIENTSIN CUSTOM cancellation, arrive Shanghai on 1884 DEC 29 with SHANGHAI CUSTOM cancellation; then deliver to IJPA SHANGHAI (1885 JAN 8) with CDS T II cancellation on the cover and OBL J cancellation on the postage; on 1885 JAN 20, the cover arrived YOKOHAMA and kept on its travel to USA; on 1885 FEB 8, it arrived US with transition cancellation from SAN FRANCISCO; on 1885 FEN 15, it finally arrived its destination: LITCHFIFLD, MINN.

Litchfield is a city in and the county seat of Meeker County, Minnesota, United States. The population was 6,726 at the 2010 census. It is a very small town at 1885, only 1250 people lived in the town during 1880 ~ 1890.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litchfield,_Minnesota

All the cancellations are on the front, there is no cancellation on the back.
There is a very light cancellation on the front, it is same US arrival cancellation from LITCHFIELD MINN.

There is a rough paper area on the lower left corner (under the multiple cancellations), it seems there was a stamp removed before the mailing. (I hope it is not a large dragon stamp get removed). Maybe the mailer put an extra stamp on the postcard, but the post office clerk told him not needed, then get that stamp removed. Who knows what happen here. It is just an interesting part to let us imaging.

图片附件: 1884日本片-正面.jpg (2014-12-15 16:36, 71.41 KB) / 下载次数 31
http://p1878.com/BBS/attachment.php?aid=1086015&k=eaf88812e91aee88a399e46f211e59c7&t=1732317492&sid=pJDFjl

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-15 16:50

After checking M. Mizuhara's famous book " The Magnificent Collection of Chinese Stamps" (华邮集锦），actually this cover may have an important position in the Postal Stationary history.

I know that M. Mizuhara's books were published in 1978 and 1985. So we may already have new records existing now. Please let me know if you have more information.

Before I tell more, I would like other members to discuss this postcard and show your opinion.

作者: xinjoo 时间: 2014-12-16 04:23

本帖最后由 xinjoo 于 2014-12-17 16:30 编辑

That is a very interesting postcard. Thanks for sharing. Sorry for disturbing Robert's post.

作者: 阮秀佑 时间: 2014-12-16 08:36

本帖最后由阮秀佑于 2014-12-16 08:39 编辑

After checking M. Mizuhara's famous book " The Magnificent Collection of Chinese Stamps" (华邮集锦） ...
假师爷发表于 2014-12-15 16:50

With all the respect, I am a bit skeptical about the Chinese Custom postal markings on the postcard based on the following observations:

1) The respective Tientsin and Shangahi cancellation markings indicate it took 14 days for this post card to travel from Tientsin to Shanghai. It seems to me it is a long extended period of time even in winter season when the port in Northern China was sealed.

2) The transition time between Shanghai Custom and IJPA Shanghai office was a bit too long as well. It should take 1- 2 days, not 10 days (from Dec. 29 to Jan 8).

3) Furthermore, the Japanese YAKOHAMA transit cancellation shows a year 1888 date, not year 1885. A concern also exists for unusually-heavier ink over the only digit (“5”) of the year slug of the IJPA Shanghai cancellation.

4) No other transit or arrival postal marking supports the fact that this postcard arrived in the States in1885.

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2014-12-16 08:57

越来越高端了，海关也玩上了，不便宜啊！

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-16 09:12

本帖最后由假师爷于 2014-12-16 09:25 编辑

回复 4# 阮秀佑

Thanks for your information. I also has questions about why it took so long time to deliver from Tientsin to Shanghai and from Shanghai Custom to IJPA Shanghai agent.
That's why I post here to see if there is anyone can explain it.

About the Japanese YAKOHAMA transition cancellation, the year is 1885. I attach the large picture for your review. But I see the number size is not same, left number is larger and right number is smaller. Do not know what can cause it.

Everyone welcome to show your point and discuss this postcard, we can learn a lot from this postcard.

图片附件: 1885-Cancellation.jpg (2014-12-16 09:12, 25.99 KB) / 下载次数 34
http://p1878.com/BBS/attachment.php?aid=1086547&k=90ca1cb120166b68e57266a571b38690&t=1732317492&sid=pJDFjl

作者: 陆小凤 时间: 2014-12-16 09:27

有背图可以看吗？

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2014-12-16 09:36

背后没戳

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2014-12-16 09:37

背后没戳

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-16 09:38

回复 5# 麦国培

边玩边学习，只要控制在自己承受范围内就行。
片是在一位老邮商处买的，问了此片的来源，还算可靠吧。
但是您如果认为片有问题，不妨提出来，大家一起学习。只有在不断学习中才能提高。

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-16 09:44

There is no cancellation on the back, there is no written date on the back.
Since there are some friends interesting to this postcards, I will do a better scan to show the details.
Welcome to discuss and show your point. I already paid price, so you have the good opportunity to learn without paying anything

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2014-12-16 10:22

应该对的，蛮好。

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2014-12-16 18:25

我看都是真的

作者: 爱邮客 时间: 2014-12-16 21:02

for me the cancellations are not strong enough

作者: 爱邮客 时间: 2014-12-16 21:08

for me the cancellations are not strong enough

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-17 13:15

回复 15# 爱邮客

OK, I scan the card and show the clear cancellation here. And there are more evidence with showing this should be mailed in 1885 rather than 1888.

The first is the CDS T II Shanghai IJPA cancellation which used from 1883 to 1891. It shows 1885 JAN 8.
1884-日本片-上海戳1.jpg

The second is the Obl J type cancellation used in Shanghai from late 1884 to middle of 1885.
1884-日本片-上海戳2.jpg

Here is the Yokohama cancellation, it shows 1885 JAN 20. With the scan, the year 1885 shows clearly.

With these 3 cancellation, it can confirm the postcard was mailed by the end of 1884 to beginning of 1885.

图片附件: 1884-日本片-上海戳2.jpg (2014-12-17 13:07, 18.98 KB) / 下载次数 33
http://p1878.com/BBS/attachment.php?aid=1087125&k=6545ffc2e0ddad79a1cd11bb6f67e25f&t=1732317492&sid=pJDFjl

图片附件: 1884-日本片-上海戳1.jpg (2014-12-17 13:07, 17.61 KB) / 下载次数 30
http://p1878.com/BBS/attachment.php?aid=1087126&k=6c2ff1cd4264da49db2370cf50ddc1dd&t=1732317492&sid=pJDFjl

图片附件: 1885-Yokohama-Cancellation.jpg (2014-12-17 13:07, 16.69 KB) / 下载次数 36
http://p1878.com/BBS/attachment.php?aid=1087127&k=e9919d205442b88309345f17affc4124&t=1732317492&sid=pJDFjl

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-17 14:00

回复 4# 阮秀佑

Thanks for asking these great questions, you pushed me to learn more and find information to solve the puzzle.

1) About the time to deliver the mail from Customs Tientsin to Customs Shanghai in the winter time.
Yes, you are right, normally it would only take a few days to send mail from Tientsin (or Beijing) to Shanghai, but I also see some mails may take over 10 days in that period.
Here are some information from M. Mizuhara's book:
Customs Beijing 1880 FEB 3 -> Customs Shanghai 1880 FEB 22 (19 days)
Customs Tientsin 1881 JAN 20 -> Customs Shanghai 1881 FEB 2 (13 days)
Customs Tientsin 1883 MAR 6 -> Customs Shanghai MAR 11 (5 days)
Customs Tientsin 1886 APR 9 -> Customs Shanghai APR 15 (6 days)
So it is possible to take 10+ days to deliver the mail from Tientsin to Shanghai. For the specific reason of delays (compare with normal 5 days), we need to do more research to find out the weather or other issues.

2) About the time to deliver the mail from Customs Shanghai to IJPA Shanghai.
You are right, normally it would only take a few days to transfer the mail. But think it was during the new year period, so it may take longer than normal to process the mail.
Same from M. Mizuhara's book, we can find following information:
Customs Shanghai 1881 SEP 19 -> IJPA Shanghai 1881 SEP 28 (9 days)
Customs Shanghai 1881 DEC 9 -> IJPA Shanghai 1881 DEC 14 ( 5 days)
Customs Shanghai 1883 MAR 11 -> IJPA Shanghai 1883 MAR 14 (3 days)
Customs Shanghai 1884 MAY 31 -> IJPA Shanghai 1883 JUN 4 (4 days)
Customs Shanghai 1886 APR 15 -> IJPA Shanghai 1886 APR 21 (6 days)

Here is the information on this postcard:
Customs Tientsin -> (14 days) -> Customs Shanghai -> (10 days) -> IJPA Shanghai -> (12 days) ->Yokohama -> (19 days) ->San Francisco -> (7 days) ->Litchfield
I think these dates are reasonable.

Welcome to raise more questions. It is good opportunity to let me learn more.

Actually, my major concern is: the color of two Custom cancellations is too black and they are similar for both Tientsin and Beijing, It also seems that black cancellation is over the red cancellation. I can see the red color is really absorbed in the paper, but not for these black ones.
Need to study more and find out the truth.

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-17 14:09

Actually, in my opinion, the thing which makes this postcard more attractive is not these two Chinese Customs cancellations even they are adding a lot values here. We can find many covers having these cancellations in that period.
I think the actual value is on the IJPA Shanghai and Yokohama cancellation on this 2 cents 1879 UPU thin paper postcard (if the cancellation is genuine).

作者: 老由 时间: 2014-12-19 10:38

刚开了个海外华邮微信群。接连不断精彩故事直播。

加我微信，拖你们进去

jimsun162

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-19 13:46

回复 19# 老由

Got it, Thanks!

作者: 爱邮客 时间: 2014-12-19 17:41

回复 19# 老由

刚才加了你的微信

作者: 老由 时间: 2014-12-19 21:14

师爷， definitely worth joining the wechat group right?

昨晚的故事会够精彩吧？哈哈

今天还有续集，世纪大漏，可别错过了。

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2014-12-20 08:33

回复 22# 老由

是的，非常精彩。
又想起小时候听评书连续广播，每天定时要守候在旁，生怕漏掉了。

现在故事会已经开始了，要去搬小凳子听讲了。

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2015-1-10 10:08

师爷,有位威廉想注册，你方便代沟通处理吗？见留言请给我短信息。

作者: 假师爷 时间: 2015-1-10 21:30

回复 24# 麦国培

已经给他发电子邮件了.

作者: 麦国培 时间: 2015-1-10 21:35

回复 25# 假师爷

感谢

欢迎光临华邮网 (http://p1878.com/BBS/)